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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:25 am 
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In regards to the earlier question regarding the Gleaming Pennant. The description does state "its first failed LD test" and as you cant re-roll a re-roll. If youre in BSB range, then its a paperweight.

However it does have its uses, such as a Knight Bus without a BSB in it (knowing the BSB will be out of range for most of the Bus's use within the game).

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:39 am 
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You do get the +100vps if a general mounted on a monster is killed but the monster is not. The extra hundred vps is a separate bonus....another example is if you break a regular unit with a standard but dont wipe the unit out you still get the 25vps for capturing the standard.

I disagree with Jed on the whole allocating vps for characters sperately. Having one part killed and hiding the other is no different to having a unit ground down to a few models left then keeping them out of harms way to preserve points.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 8:25 am 
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Quote:
Q: If I kill a character but not their mount, do I score victory
points for just the character, the character and their mount, or
must I kill the mount too in order to score any victory points?
(p143)
A: You must kill the character and his mount to score any
victory points.
Yeah, - this is specifically what I was referring to.
The 'ANY' VPs, and what that includes?
Quote:
For example if a Character on a Mount (whatever it is) dies from a Cannonball, Magic Spell/miscast, Combat, Shooting (whatever) and the owning player proceeds to hide, flee, stay out of combat, manipulate to sit behind other targets etc. Effectively preventing its death to deny points i believe is in poor taste
If you decide to mark me down on sportsmanship for playing a tactical game Jed - Id be rather disappointed.
A Sportsmanship Score shouldnt be about whether you were disagreed with a ruling or were unhappy with the gamestyle I play, but should be about how I played the game, and whether I was gracious in defeat or not a jerk about winning (if I am so lucky as to score a win against you again).

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 12:17 pm 
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See, thats where i differ in my view from the both of you it seems.

If a unit was ground down to all but a few models (In editions and tournaments past) you were awarded half VP for the unit. Which i thought was fair. It also allowed a little more flexibility in determining victory conditions. I'm not saying any way you allocate VP's is better than any other way, I've been playing for the better part of two decades and over that time i have made opinions about how VP's are/should or shouldn't be allocated. Hell, i still remember a time when if your General died for whatever reason your entire army had to take a LD check, if it failed it would then flee towards the nearest board edge....scary!

Boothy - The FAQ makes it appear that NO VP's are allocated (this includes the bonus VP's) until the entire model is Dead/Fled off the board. I could be wrong, but its just how have read it.

A: You must kill the character and his mount to score any
victory points.


Ju - You're putting words in my mouth. I just said "it is in poor taste", which i think it is. If you have a glorious champion sitting atop a dragon and he unfortunately takes a cannonball to the face the dragon (in the theme of the game and for dramatic effect) should proceed to kill everything in its path as oppose to whimper out and hide. I didn't say anything referring to me docking sportsmanship points as i fundamentally believe that is poor sportsmanship in itself. It has happened to me in the past. I didnt dock anyone sports at last Ultimate's and would be disheartened to think that anyone participating would dock me sports just because i have an alternative view to them about rulings within the game or how VP's should be allocated.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:27 pm 
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Quote:
Q: If the General or BSB is mounted on a Monster (A Skink Chief on a Stegadon for example), and that character is killed but the Mount is not, does the opponent score the bonus Victory points for The General (+100 VP) or BSB (+100 VP).
A: No. The FAQ is pretty clear on this - no points are awarded until both are dead, and that includes any bonuses from General, BSB, or anything else you might find on the Ultimate Warhammer scenarios.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:38 pm 
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I would vote, that killing a Character counts towards Victory Points (both in base cost and bonus points, Excluding cost of mount) regardless of Mount.

EDIT: Ill further my reasoning for this stance. The concept of a TOURNAMENT is in itself a "House Rule", "Victory Point Tables" that we use to declare margins of victory are a house rule. Max point spends on Units (500pts in the case of ultimates), magic dice cast (5), 15+ spell one use only and various other rules are all "House Rules". I believe a house rule should be used to dictate this particular situation.
Whilst the way tournaments operate is to create an alternate scoring structure on top of what is dictated by the standard game, making more changes than is needed to allow the games to work in this format is frought with peril and gets into a lot of subjectivity - which is why I tend to avoid it wherever possible. Whilst it is true that we have made some minor (certainly minor compared to the standard set by many international events) alterations to keep the tournament as level and fair as possible, I certainly do not agree that this one is required at all.

One big problem which you haven't considered or mentioned in splitting the character from the mount when calculating VPs is that there are still a number of instances in the game (notably special characters) where both character and mount are printed as a combined cost rather than individual elements. These mounts may not be the same as a standard mount of its type either, so you can't reasonably split the cost of the two without that info as reference.

Preventing the other element (either character or mount) from dying to conserve/deny points is certainly a legitimate tactical option, but one that is made a little more challenging by reduced mobility/fighting power/monster reactions.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:20 pm 
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Hmm OK based on the above ruling of getting bonus vps, could you clarify how you will be awarding bonus vps for capturing standards? i.e. does a player have to break the unit in combat and actually destroy the unit at some point in the game to claim the bonus, or is the capturing of the standard enough?

Half vps for units half destroyed was good in the past, but I think with some spells able to wipe out half a unit in a single cast its probably a good thing half vps isnt in this edition e.g. its easy to destroy half a unit with purple sun, but quite hard to wipe said unit out and actually score points.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 8:53 pm 
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Naa Luke. The 8th editions books outline special characters like so.

Special Characters, cost *****

"Special Character" may be mounted on special monster for *****

They actually give a breakdown of costs between the two. So its not an issue. I think GW did this intentionally possibly with VP's in mind and to allow players to squeeze special characters on foot into more reasonable sized armies.

Plus most of the books have been replaced with 8th edition anyway. Whats left that could be an issue? Skaven? Possibly Dwarf? Maybe Bret? Most of the big, nasty, weird combo armies have been done.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:06 pm 
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Thats not actually true for all Special Characters. Some dont have options when it comes to mounts, and it is all wrapped up in one. The new Dark Elf generic Beastmaster lord-level comes with a Manticore or Chariot already included in his points too.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:11 pm 
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That's right Tom. Jed - you need to do your research. ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:39 pm 
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Dont have the book. I have the rest, just not the new Dark Elf book.

Can the beastmaster be the BSB or General?

Since its not a special character, cant it be determined by deducting the cost of a Manticore or Chariot from his cost knowing what both cost?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:09 pm 
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He can be the general. And it can be inferred/guessed how much he costs without the mounts. I guess if you did want to run a tournament with this modification to the scoring system... but as far as Ultimates rules goes, entirely pointless :P

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:55 am 
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Quote:
15+ spell one use only
god damn it... I just realised this rule just hurt my army...really bad.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:04 am 
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Wait that rule is still in effect????

Luke times have changed! Update your silly rules!

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:14 am 
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And Ju keeps telling me im not going to win Ultimates because i dont read enough rules or whatever his reasoning is.

Both Rocdocta and Wolflord havent read the Rules Pack....HAHAHAHAHAHA

Yes guys, 15+ Cast is one use only. (I personally love this rule...it stops stupid spells from single cast deleting armies).

max 5 dice to cast a spell.

Can i recommend that you guys read the rules before you submit your lists.

Roc, how does this hurt your army? I guess i should ask what you are taking first, before i ask how?

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